Strawberry started a thread in the Mists of Pandaria Beta Classes forum asking “How many specs out there have 1 or more “No-brainer” talents? That is, for your spec (or maybe your whole class), is there a talent tier where the choice you should take for optimal performance is so obvious that you believe nearly all of those playing it will choose it nearly all of the time? […]” [link]
Ghostcrawler indicated that the developers are interested in responses to the question: “Posting here to draw a little attention to a useful thread. What would also be useful is to state (in a nice way) when you disagree with a previous poster.” [link]
If you’d like to review the hunter talents proposed for MoP as they now stand see our MoP Hunter Talents Guide.
Here are the hunter-related responses so far:
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Melubyou, a hunter wrote, “Silencing Shot and Readiness are definitely no-brainer for pvp hunters. The lvl 90 talents all suck so I guess you can kinda say that’s a no-brainer too lol.” [link]
Strawberry, a mage, replied, “Readiness I can agree on. The other two are clearly DPS increases, whereas utility tends to play a much bigger role in PvP. That one may be a pretty obvious choice.”
Silencing Shot… maybe. All three of those seem like they could be useful for PvP depending on your comp and what you’re up against. If you have a comp that uses a lot of cleaves, for example, then Binding Shot may be a great piece of utility — or if you’re facing a team without many casters, Silencing Shot may not be the “obvious” choice, and extra CC may be more useful than extra interrupts.
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Adarant, a hunter, replied, “If you find Readiness a no-brainer talent choice, then you’ve not put much thought into it. Fervor is a much stronger talent than you assume it is, to the point that it might be the no-brainer on the tier, not Readiness. At the very least, the current Thrill of the Hunt is a no-brainer to NOT be taken on that tier, though GC indicated it is weak and is being redesigned. In my opinion, having a talent that is a no-brainer to not be selected is just as bad as having one that is a no-brainer to be taken.” [link]
Sturmwreiter, a hunter, replied to Adarant, “Readiness gives you more survivability (resetting Master’s Call, Deterrence, and Disengage). Fervor is more for PvE (particularly for BM). For PvP, there’s no thought in taking Silencing Shot (for PvE as well…Binding Shot is like a horribly designed Shadowfury, and Wyvern Sting is still Wyvern Sting) and Readiness, particularly since they were one of the main reasons every PvP hunter in Cata was Marks.” [link]
Also responding to Adarant, Zhe, a shaman, wrote, “He’s talking about PVP as he stated in his post. Who would anyone in their right mind ever take Fervor over Readiness? Fervor provides damage only (indirectly). Readiness provides both damage (double Rapid Fire, TBW, Chimera, ExS, KC, etc. depending on focus), utility (double Traps, Flare, Scatter, t30 talent, etc.), AND survivability (double FD, Disengage, Deterrence, Master’s Call, etc.). ”
TotH is extremely weak for both PVP and PVE. Fervor is far superior (except for AoE) to it simply because of the amount of focus returned, not only for you but also your pet. Also, Fervor can be used on demand unlike TotH. If I had to infer, lazy or unskilled players will end up picking TotH (if it’s not moved to a diff tier) over Fervor for PVE, simply to avoid a button press.
I’d concur with Silencing Shot being the no-brainer for PVP, since we’re the only dps in the game without a baseline interrupt. I was really hopeful for Binding Shot for RBGs, but as I mentioned in the other thread, it’s very poorly implemented. You can easily avoid it, it’s dispel-able, shares the same DR as other controlled stuns, lasts only 3 sec, and has twice the CD of other such abilities (i.e., Shadowfury, RoF).
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Wyndstorm, a hunter, also replied to Adarant, “Actually for MM in PVE I think readiness is the only choice in that tier. Between the fact that the spec was designed to work with that talent and the fact that the other two just bring more focus to a spec that will have trouble not being focus capped often anyway, I don’t see any scenario where Fervor or TotH can beat it. For the other specs and PVP, Fervor is definitely looking like a good, competitive option though. In general the hunter tiers seem to often suffer from having two decent choices and one that can be ignored.”
The level 15 tier has two great options in Posthaste and CTHC but when would you ever choose Narrow Escape? Maybe if Escape had the root removal that Posthaste does it would be an option but posthaste is better for kiting in both PVE and PVP with it’s snare/root removal + haste
In the level 30 tier Silencing Shot will rule except in situations where interrupts aren’t needed in which case Wyvern Sting is the only other real choice. Binding shot may get some attention for being new and unique but it’s just not very strong as it has little effect on casters and is easy to counter by most melee.
The 60 tier was already discussed and in the 75 tier Lynx Rush has little use outside of BM in situations where really short burst damage is required.
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Zulgaro, a hunter, wrote, “PVP – Silencing Shot vs Wyvern Sting vs Binding Shot – No brainer choice: Not Wyvern Sting. BM – Fervor vs Readiness vs TotH (vs Call Beast as that may be a choice against Fervor soon) – No brainer choice: Fervor – only ability that gives pet Focus, which keeps Wild Hunt time up and ensure enough Pet Focus for Basic Attacks.” [link]
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Namarus, a hunter, wrote, “tier 1 – All equally crap for PVE, All decent for PVP.”
tier 2 – Silencing Shot (interrupt is super useful for 10 man raiding and PVP). Odd we don’t have a baseline interrupt.
Not Wyvern Sting (totally crap)tier 3 – Aspect of the Iron Hawk (saw the math somewhere but reduced damage is way better than self healing, you can stay alive from single hits that might outright kill you. Nothing here in this tier that I would call crap though.
tier 4 – Fervor PVE, Readiness PVP. ToTh totally crap.
tier 5 – Dire Beast PVE and PVP, rest are pretty crap. Cooldown on MoC is too long to bother with and has all the problems with hunter dots no scaling and a massively long cooldown. Lynx rush not very much damage. I’d rather the extra focus generation from dire beast. […]
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Skarn, a hunter, replied to Namarus, “I disagree. Tier 1 is quite nice for PvE. There have been a lot of times when moving faster is very beneficial such as kiting Atramedes or Hagara’s Ice phase. There’s also been many times when rooting some adds would be great such as Magmaw, Beth’tilac or Rhyolith. If Narrow Escape worked on the Bloods on the Spine fight…WOW! And there have definitely been times when I wanted Deterrence up more often. I think the talents here will largely be ‘this one works great for this fight, this one works great for that one.’ They are definitely useful in PvE.”
Tier 2
Silencing Shot’s usefulness is going to depend on lot on raid design. This expansion, it was very useful in the BWD/BoT/Throne tier, but totally worthless for Dragon Soul. It’s situational usefulness is likely to remain true for Mists. Binding Shot, much like Narrow Escape in tier 1, is also going to be highly situational. Again, it’s an intriguing idea to have a hunter use Narrow Escape + Binding Shot to help control Bloods on Spine. Obviously, the encounter will no longer be important in Mists, I’m just using this as a prime example of how this ability could be useful in PvE. Wyvern Shot might be really useful in Challenge modes. The extra CC might well be worth it.
This whole tier is clearly a “right choice for this fight” tier. For PvP, Silencing Shot is likely the correct choice. Wyvern Sting is way too ineffective for PvP…then again, with the cooldown on dispels, maybe not. If the healer uses dispel on your Freeze Trap, it can’t be used on your Wyvern Sting.
Tier 3
In general, reduced damage is better than increased healing. So I agree that Iron Hawk has the advantage. There are likely situations where a large burst of healing is more useful. Chimareon, for example, though I doubt we’ll see many encounters like that. It’s also conceivable that the constant small healing will be more helpful than the damage reduction. If the damage reduction would not kill you and if the passive healing from Spirit Bond would restore more than 15% of the damage, then the passive heal may be better. Note that Iron Hawk is based off the damage coming in while Spirit Bond is based off your health. Spirit Bond may be more effective versus lot of smaller hits while Iron Hawk is better versus a few larger hits.
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Wvwv, a death knight, replied to Skarn, “I agree. People never look at movement abilities as a dps increase or viable in pve which is kinda sad. Getting from point A to point B faster will increase your dmg among other things for hunters.” [link]
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Alphavhunter, a hunter, wrote, “no brainer talent for 99% of pvp, hunters tier 30 silencing shot, I would suggest replacing this with entrapment, making silencing shot baseline (remove pet abilities that do this, they aren’t used in pvp anyway, or pve, give them something else). Any hunter worth his merit sees the issues with picking wyvern or binding shot over silencing shot, it’s just too much of a usefulness issue. […]”
Tier 90 however there is a considerable issue in the pick, because they all have bad utility, barrage has 0 utility (suggested making it an interrupt feild [sic], but does not prevent instant casts). Power shot’s knockback is sooo pathetic, it’s nowhere near worth using, it breaks camo on started cast, and it just plain feels like an aimed shot. I would suggest lowering the damage slightly, make it instant cast, and SEVERELY improve the knockback, it’s only noticeable when the enemy is being pushed down a hill, and even then it’s pathetic.
[link]
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Wvwv, a death knight, wrote, “Hunter: Tier 15- Good choices, I can see a good use with all the talents. One of my favorite tiers.”
Tier 30- Silencing shot every time no matter what.
Tier 45- These are good choices again, I can see the use in them. I like the defensive/self healing of this tier a lot.
Tier 60- A big dps tree, with the buff to fervor i think it can have it uses in pve and maybe pvp in certain situations. Thrill of the hunt is being redesigned so hard to say. I’m also liking the look of this tree so far.
tier 75- I have a lot of worries about this tree, Dire beast is the most appealing though.
Tier 90- I think Powershot and Glaive Toss needs to be buffed or reworked in someway. If that happens all these abilities are appealing. Barrage is my favorite ability so far for pve and pvp, and that’s mostly because the others just aren’t great for pvp. A 30% slow and a mediocre knock back. A knockback on one of our shots is a good idea, but the cast time isn’t great and I think the slow on Glaive toss should be increased.
Silencing shot is the only talent I can see “most” hunters taking in “most” situations, which kinda sucks because binding shot is a cool ability in theory; it helps us kite and has a stun utility to it. It’s just too weak atm.
[link]
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Sturmreiter, a hunter, wrote, “Hunter, mostly PvE here: 15: Posthaste is a second snare break (after Master’s Call, and on half the cooldown) and run speed buff. Goes well with the Worgen racial, as well (personal preference). CTHC is a good candidate, but I don’t see a lot of use for Narrow Escape, even in PvP.”
30: Silencing Shot is the no-brainer, to the point that it should just be baseline. Binding Shot is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad version of Shadowfury, and Wyvern Sting has sucked since it was introduced in patch 1.7. If you don’t use Silencing Shot, you fail as a hunter.
45: 3 actually viable choices. I could see Exhilaration being useful for a fight like Chimaeron (lots of burst damage and needing a pinch heal) and PvP, Iron Hawk is a solid go-to for anything (unless you need to go to Fox for a good chunk of the fight), and Spirit Bond is good for when you take a lot small damage.
60: Thrill Of The Hunt sucks in its current incarnation. Give it the refund-on-crit mechanic from TBC/Wrath and it might be worthwhile. Fervor vs. Readiness is a VERY good choice that is hard to math out, although Fervor greatly helps BM PvE more than SV or MM, and Readiness is a definite PvP winner. Buff TotH and you’d have a solid tier with 3 viable choices (passive focus regen, burst focus regen, or a cooldown reset).
75: Lynx Rush if you’re BM, Dire Beast if you’re not (haven’t done the math, but Dire Beast does a bit of damage and gives you a good chunk of Focus). MoC looks like MAYBE defending a flag/node against one target, otherwise, it doesn’t look appealing.
90: Not really a fan of any of them. Glaive Toss doesn’t provide enough of a snare to warrant the cooldown and focus cost, Powershot is too long of a cooldown for what it does, and Barrage seems way too clunky to get the AoE splash damage (also channeled, so you lose 2 Autoshots and the Focus for 2 Arcane Shots [which is more damage, single target…330% weapon damage, before armor mitigation]). This tier screams “We’re experimenting with a WoW FPS!”
Ideas for out level 90 talents: Make Glaive Toss be a controlled stun, just like the spell we all know and love from Magister’s Terrace, since hunters lack a targeted, unbreakable stun/CC. Powershot should be our version of Thunderstorm (like it is, but cut the cast time and cooldown and reduce the damage)…not sure what to do with Barrage to make it a control ability rather than more damage in an area we’re not really lacking.
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Kiingeh, a hunter, wrote, “From a PvP perspective. Tier 2: Silencing shot without a doubt, Wyvern sting is still quite useless and Binding Shot is just a poorly designed shadowfury.”
Tier 3: Aspect of the Iron Hawk, the reduced damage easily trumps the healing from Exhilaration and Spirit Bond.
Tier 4: Readiness, doubling all your defensive cooldowns, easy to see why this is a no brainer.
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Sturmreiter replied to Kiingeh, “Iron Hawk will be very good in PvE (yay passive defense after 8 ****ing years!), but I can see Exhilaration having a niche in arenas. Also, Iron Hawk will suck if they do anything to marginalize aspect dancing, since you’re giving yourself up by going into Fox for a few seconds to fire off that Cobra/Steady. Silencing Shot is going to be the sure-fire idiot check for Mists. If you don’t have it, you should surely be fired, idiot.” [link]
Skarn replied to Sturmreiter, “I agree that an interrupt is one thing I’ve always wanted as Survival, but an interrupt is NOT always useful in PvE content. There are many fights that have nothing to interrupt. The problem in such a case is this: Are the other two talents any good? The answer is “probably not.” During a boss fight, Wyvern Sting is likely worthless. It’s only any good on trash where your group is careful not to break it. Binding Shot has potential uses, but I haven’t looked at Mists raids yet to know if any use will exist or if it will even be viable.
Silencing Shot is certainly the talent that looks like a no-brainer, if only because it’s competing talents are so lackluster that in a situation with no interrupts, you’d wonder if it’d be worth spending the dust to change your talent.
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Melubyou replied to Kiingeh, “Don’t really agree with aspect of the iron hawk. It might be better than exhilaration for rbgs where you can ‘pve it up’ a lot more in hawk, but for arenas where there’ll be a lot more movement, iron hawk is just not up enough.” [link]
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Zhe, a shaman, wrote, “Lynx Rush is awesome for any spec when used right (minding CC’d targets) in PVP. It provides great single target burst compared to Dire Beast. Crows are just awful.” [link]
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Mythë, a hunter, wrote, “Hunter Tier 3 Hawk and Spirit bond are both good pending style, type of damage coming and healer situation. Exhilaration’s CD makes it lackluster and avoided in almost all situations.”
Tier 4- Thrill just doesn’t have enough of a proc chance to compete against fervor, and readiness has its niche in burst and PVP
Tier 5 – Lynx Rush with the long cd and lackluster damage, even as BM with BW and rabid up. The only foreseeable use would be in pvp crows being basically one-shotted by AE and dire being too easily kited. In PvE Crows is rather huge damage now and dire has the focus regen element so each seems to have some use. If the damage were upped by maybe 50-75% it would still be on the low side of dps vs cd but the pvp utility at least for BM would make it usable
[link]
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Wolfmanelite, a hunter, wrote, “No-Brainer straight off the Hunter’s Mark is Silencing Shot for T2. With no base line interrupt (ignoring Scatter Shot as the low range and 30sec cool down make it a joke interrupt).”
T4 Readiness is my no-brainer, Fervor is good but I personally have never found the need to use it. I never run out of focus for my hunter I never hit it. Although it is probably more of a style thing having by big hitting talents back up and running asap is my no-brainer.
Lastly T5 is Dire Beast. Even though I enjoy Murder of Crows and choose it each time. The high CD and being the only focus costing talent in the tier make MoC not a good choice. Although 4 Dire beasts’ damage compared to one Crows would be interesting to see how they stack up. And Lynx unless you are trying to lead meters on trash is not worth it.
[link]
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Melix, a hunter, wrote, “Silencing Shot and Readiness. My talents are almost identical for PvP and PvE. Boooooooring.” [link]
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Dirtykarl, a hunter, wrote, “First – I think this is a great thread as it feels like people are getting a broader look at application/utility of talents. Second – For hunters at least it seems we have 2 “viable” talents to choose from on several tiers.”
Trying to view the talents from all both angles of PvP and PvE.
Tier 1 –
Post Haste – (My No brainer – would never pick this talent) – Movement speed really shouldn’t be an issue for hunters as MOST will have boot enchant with movement buff, Aspect of Cheetah or if you’re an engineer then you have your belt. Do the enchant, aspect or talent speed buffs stack?
Narrow Escape – Pets can already web for PvP and leveling, Bosses and trash are typically immune to snares (zero in DS, Beth in FL, Magmaw in BWD and Cho’gall in BoT). The bit of raiding I’ve done in MoP (and seen) makes me think this talent won’t be chose much by the PvE crowd but could be used quite a bit for PvP.
My preference = Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon as it offers the most survivability while using the already present hunter abilities.Tier 2-
Wyvern Sting – (My No brainer – would never pick this talent) – The idea of CC is to control the mob, this shot does not allow us to control a mob for long. I’ve used it for “oh shoot” moments but only for that and very infrequently. The sting aspect is really the bad actor that I think most hunters have issue with – we want some dmg but not a DoT.
Binding Shot – This is nearly the same as a frost trap without the stun (Current Entrapment talent – SV). The only difference is you have to target and cast which is quite difficult to do while kiting mobs. From a PvP perspective, the danger isn’t being near the shot, it’s moving OUT of the shot. I would think a competent PvP’r might just stand still unless they are forced to move or possibly dance around the arrow.
My preference = Silencing Shot – Not a ton of utility for PvE (again looking at MoP raids) but it’s the least offensive of the three. Obvious use in PvP but now a more controlled CC vs Wyrven Sting.Tier 3 –
I think all three have utility and will be player preference/conditional – finally we have some form of a meaningful self heal or damage mitigation. Others have mentioned very solid pro’s and con’s of each which to me says the tier is in pretty good shape, ie difficult to choose.Tier 4 –
Thrill of the Hunt – (My No brainer – would never pick this talent) – not on par with the other talents offered in this tier.
Fervor –Rarely do hunters become focus starved after having learned to minimize movement in PvE events. Even if forced to move, we should be able to swap to Fox and regen while moving.
My preference = Readiness – Burst DPS (something SV was lacking) and survivability. This seems a “no brainer” to me but others have made strong arguments for Fervor.Tier 5 –
Lynx Rush – (My No brainer – would never pick this talent) – Long CD and pet has to be in range when cast. Even if the CD was shortened, I don’t think I would consider this unless someone could prove to me (numbers) that the DPS is better than the other two options.
Murder of Crow – I’ve tested this on Beta and the talent just isn’t worth it. The crow build up is too slow and the CD is long. One could argue that the up time would improve with Readiness but that makes Tier 4 talent, Readiness a mandatory talent.
Dire Beast – My pick No Brainer – Good uptime, instant cast, increased focus regen and additional DPS. Unless someone can prove otherwise – I will always pick Dire Beast.Tier 6 –
Power Shot – (My No brainer – would never pick this talent) – The simple fact that you have to pick a target BEHIND a group of targets makes this painful. This is the early beta version of Black Arrow (which was thankfully changed back to Cata).
Glaive Toss – See Power Shot – the benefit of snaring (see T1 – Narrow Escape) may be of use in an RBG setting but I don’t see any real PvE utility. Once again your forced to pick a target that is behind or near a crowd and assume that crowd is not moving away as you’re casting.
My Preference = Barrage – A clear and obvious DPS burst which can be used on single or multiple targets. You’re not forced to target mobs in the back nor worry about movement.Tier with the most difficult choice T3
Tier with the most obvious choice T2 and a close T6
Adarant wrote, “My statement on Fervor v. Readiness has been quoted several times on previous pages. So rather than find them all and respond individually, I’m just going to post this.”
The fact that I, among others, are considering and advocating for Fervor over Readiness means that neither of them can be a no-brainer talent. If either one of them was that much better than the other, nobody would be making the case for the “bad” talent. As it stands now, both seem really good and I am leaning towards Fervor. For those that prefer Readiness, great, have fun.
What is more telling, though, is that Thrill of the Hunt has not been mentioned in a positive light once. It is a no-brainer not to be selected. I’m not too worried at the moment, as a redesign has been announced. However, if the new Thrill of the Hunt is still significantly weaker than both Readiness and Fervor, it will still be a no-brainer non-selection.
This is further mucked up if the devs move Dire Beast to the Fervor/Thrill of the Hunt tier, which is something that GC indicated they have discussed.
Others have made the Silencing Shot argument, but for PvE, that decision will rest squarely with design decision. If we get encounters will no interrupts required, Silencing Shot will be a wasted talent. If we get encounters with lots of add control required, Silencing Shot will be a wasted talent. I don’t think you can call that tier a no-brainer for PvE without seeing encounter designs
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Dirtykarl replied, “If you review the raids which have been Beta tested to date (I’ve participated in 4 and watched every event video) – ZERO require single person multiple add control. One requires 4 mobs to be CC’d but it has to be controlled CC. This MAY be different on heroic mode but unless that is the case – No one will spec for trash which is why people don’t see this talent being useful and to use your words a wasted talent.” [link]
Adarant replied, “http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/5888889787?page=2 I’ve found at least one already. Fervor is incredibly strong and I feel that many people are outright dismissing the talent without giving it enough consideration, in both aspects of the game. Furthermore, if Dire Beast is moved to this tier, this Readiness v. Fervor debate will be moot. The point I made in the linked thread is that the two talents are incredibly difficult to balance against each other, because they both fill different needs.”
Call me dense, but because you didn’t list a specific talent, am I correct in assuming you are saying that Silencing Shot is less useful than Binding Shot? It seems to me that Binding Shot would fill the “controlled CC” role that you say is needed. I’m just having a bit of a hard time parsing what you’ve written because you didn’t state a talent outright.
[link]
Dirtykarl replied, “No what I’m saying both talents are nearly useless in a PvE setting unless the mechanics require a silence (few and far between based on my entire history of WoW – nearly 8 years now). In my head Silencing Shot is the “No Brainer” in this tier if only to support a PvP role.”
Binding shot is NOT controlled CC. It is a 10 second stun with a 1 min CD. I don’t consider that controlled. The one event I was addressing was in Heart of Fear (2nd or 3rd boss) where the boss is sorrounded by 10 adds. Four must be CC’d (Sheep/Trap/Spear/Fear/Sap) until they NEED to be broke out. The best option a hunter has for this is Ice Trap and not a 10 sec stun.
So to be perfectly clear – Silencing shot is the only REAL choice in the tier based on what I currently understand of Raiding and PvP in MoP. This is what the majority of Hunters are also stating.
[link]
Adarant replied, “Okay, that clarifies things a lot. I intentionally avoid raid testing and pre-release information about raids because I like to learn fights with my guild. I do agree that Silencing Shot is the best talent on the tier, to the point that it is almost too powerful.” [link]
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To follow the conversation as it progresses or to add your voice, see the “No-Brainer” Talents thread in the MoP Beta forums.
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