Elitist Jerks Weekly Recap 1/13/12

Every Friday Tabana brings you the latest discussions straight from the Elitist Jerks forums with a recap of what was discussed and links to the full posts so you can stay on top of the latest in hunter theorycrafting.

4.3.2 Changes to Black Arrow 1/10/12

In the Survival thread, Hamsda asked, “[...] will the changed BA, same overall damage but 20 sec duration instead of 15 and ticking every 2 sec instead of 3, effectively increasing the DPET [damage per execute time] by one third and doubling the amount of ticks from 5 to 10, be better than immolation trap on single targets? [...]”

Razzghul replied, “Isn’t the black arrow change just to bring it into line with explosive trap on a single target? Longer duration and more ticks should give it the same chance for a lock and load proc as the trap does.”

Nerec replied, “Servus Hamsda, BA didnt get any damage buff, it only will last longer (20s) and tick more often (roughly every 2s).”

  • Black Arrow instantly dealing 750 damage and dealing and additional 2850 Shadow damage, and scales with 13.3% RAP
  • Trap has a small base damage (29 per tick) but with a 54.5% RAP coefficient.

If I’m half as good in math as I think, with 9194, 4444 RAP will Trap be deal more dmg as BA. Got numbers from patch 4.2 for BA and Trap out of the first post in this thread. (pls report if numbers are false!) And as DPF [damage per focus], trap is even higher as BA, but focus didnt really matter this tier. Though we will likely still want to launch traps if we can predict that our target isnt moving.

Pichuca replied, “I think both you guys are talking about Explosive trap and not Immolation trap. Immo trap deals ridiculous damage.”

Explosive trap deals roughly half the damage of BA on single target, there is no reason anymore to keep using it (if there was a reason on 4.3, 99% of progressing hunters where not using it but on Yor’sahj) on single target, now that both spells have the same chance to procc LnL.

DPET on BA has not changed, it deals exactly the same damage as before for the same cast time (1 GCD)

Nerec replied, “Just found better fitting numbers:”

Black Arrow – 66.5% RAP + 2849 (total tick damage)
Explosive Trap – 54.6% RAP + 296 (total tick damage) + 5.46% RAP + 223 (initial damage)

Can someone verify this? Using this newly stated numbers, 17000 ap from my char (unbuffed) and 42% crit chance would generate the follow numbers:
Black Arrow: 26043,36 = 0,665*17000 + 2849 + 0,42*2*(0,665*17000 + 2849)
Explosive Trap: 17719,638 = 17000*0,546 + 296 + 0,42*1,5*(17000*0,545 + 296) + 17000*0,0546 + 223 + 0,42*2*(17000*0,0546 + 223)

Would fit with the statement of pichuca

Hamsda replied, “I’ve put together a little Excel sheet to experiment with the dmg from BA and ET. Assuming the RAP coefficients Nerec posted are correct and inserting 17000AP and 0.42crit I get the following values [...]

Black Arrow: 20098.68
Explosive Trap: 13224.08

The values differ because Nerec didn’t subtract the crit chance from the normal damage (100% normal hits + 42% * 2 or 1.5 crit coeff results in too much damage). [...] Still, pichuca was of course right, BA does outdps ET on a single target and with the changes coming in 4.3 they both have 10 ticks with the same chance to trigger LnL.

Also I used the calculated numbers for another test. Assuming 1 target takes the full effect of the ET I created a second table calculating how much damage the ET does if x additional targets take the initial hit of the trap + y ticks of it. Not very relevant in the current tier, as said earlier mostly in the Yor’sahj encounter, but some others like Blackhorn, Spine or Madness may be affected too.

According to my table ET will only do less damage than BA with 1 additional target and 4 or less ticks or with 2 additional targets and 1 tick. In every other case ET should outdps BA. With the values stated above on a Yor’sahj yellow/black/red scenario (I’m not sure if ET is aoe capped for 10+ targets) ET will do up to 145k damage if all 10 adds take the full trap.

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Haste Valuation 1/6/12

In the Hunter DPS Analyzer thread, Sunderwhere wrote, “I’m encountering an interesting issue with FD on my hunter. (Profile name is Freebowjobz). I am currently 57 Hit Rating over hitcap, however my neckpiece allows me to reforge that exact amount of hit into either Haste or Mastery.”

When I reforge it to Haste I only gain 3.4 DPS, even though Haste is worth 2.380 DPS, and even after I gain the 57 Haste, it is still valued at 2.902 DPS. When I reforge it to Mastery, I gain 84.55 DPS, when Mastery is worth 1.483 DPS. I am stumped as to why this disparity is happening. Could someone shed some insight as to what I’m doing wrong (if anything)?

Nooska replied, “What you are “doing wrong” is reading the value the wrong way most likely. The valuation is, I believe, derived from the stats you have (and how much they contribute at your exact gearing). If FD indeed presents the valuation from prediction of further stats, then it is broken in valuing haste (even with “haste is worth different values at different amounts”) – trust the result rather than the valuation, the result is “simmed”, the valuation is merely calculated (either backwards or forwards).

Whitefyst added, “There are other items to understand concerning haste. First, is how haste actually affects you in game for an ideally performed rotation for MM.”

Your DPS does not actually change linearly or even via any other continuous function with single haste rating increases. Instead, your DPS changes with discrete jumps when certain haste points are reached. For the vast majority of haste rating +1 increases, your actual DPS does not change at all. Your DPS only increases at discrete haste points where any of the following occur:

  • You gain an extra autoshot. [...]
  • You gain an extra pet melee. [...]
  • You have reduced cast times enough to be able to squeeze in an additional shot over the course of the fight or each cycle. [...]
  • The haste results in additional focus at a certain time which allows you to be able to use a focus dump at that time that you were not able to previously perform. [...]
  • How haste directly affects pet’s focus level and indirectly affects pet focus level via the number of focus dumps you perform and Sic’Em procs and GftT procs from additional autoshots. This impacts your pet’s WH uptime and DPS.

Hence, most haste +1 increases have no theoretical change to your DPS, but certain discrete ones cross any of the thresholds causing either positive or negative impacts to overall DPS.

The next item is to try to understand how FD works in this regards. [...] The table below illustrates what happens in FD with haste rating +1 changes for your character starting with your neck no reforged. [...] As can be seen over the 60 haste rating steps, there was only one discrete change in DPS. The other 59 steps did not have a DPS change as one would expect in actual game play. Instead, the FD results increased DPS by 0.65 DPS per rating step. I am not 100% sure on why this happens, but my guess is that FD includes in the DPS fractions of autoshots and pet melee attacks. [...]

At 39 haste rating, there is a discrete change in DPS. In this case it is a negative change. The shot timings worked out here such that the rules allowed the first KS to be performed a few seconds earlier allowing an extra one to be performed at the end. In the process, the extra KS resulted in a loss of a CS and an extra SS being performed to maintain ISS with where the KSs were performed.

During the complete range the Haste Rating +1 amount is always off from the actual DPS gains by on average a factor of 4 and was never really impacted much by the DPS loss at 39 haste rating. [...]

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MM vs. SV Part II 1/6/12

In the Hunter DPS Analyzer thread, Lilbitters wrote, “As much as it would seem reasonable to rely strictly on FemaleDwarf or SimCraft, you still just can’t see XX,XXX DPS and take that for granted. Dragon Soul heavily favors Survival over Markmanship on most fights just from encounter design by things that aren’t really simulated in spreadsheets. [...]”

Some notes from my observation and personal experiences [...]:

  • Multi-Dotting with Cobra refresh:
    • Warlord Zon’ozz (Heroic) – Depending on strategy, may be lots of movement in P2, but SV can DoT several Eyes if needed. Still a good fight for MM though
    • Yor’sahj (All) – Keeping Serpent Sting on boss, Blood, and Mana Void (mainly effective on Heroic when leaving up first Void)
    • Warmaster Blackhorn (All) – Serpent Sting on both Drake Riders and Drakes while they fly by, and on Warmaster and Goriona in P2
    • Spine of Deathwing (Normal+Heroic) – Serpent Stinging all Corruption and Explosive Trap under Blood almost guarantee LNL on cooldown for burst on Tendon.
    • Madness of Deathwing (All) – Keeping Sting on Mutated Corruption and Claw/Arm is very easy
  • Periods of AoEing:
  • Heavy movement or cast interruption:
    • Morchok (Normal+Heroic) – SV has more instants and less casted spells and has to switch to AotFox less
    • Yor’sahj (All) – Lots of movement every time the Bloods spawn, but most of that is mitigated by Disengage in either case
    • Ultraxion (Normal+Heroic) – Heroic Will for Fading Light or Hour of Twilight can cut into Haste procs and SV has more DoT damage ticking while phased
    • Warmaster Blackhorn (All) – Lots of moving into Twilight Onslaught/Barrage and avoiding Charges (and fire on heroic), so MM would suffer from having to cancel casts pretty often or stay in AotFox for long periods of time

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Patch 4.3.2. Changes Supported 1/9/12

In the Hunter DPS Analyzer thread, Rivkah announced, “I’ve added support on the site for all the new 4.3.2 changes announced. To enable them you’ll need to turn on the PTR support setting. I’m assuming 35% bonus to hawk means the new RAP for it is 2700- if it turns out to be different on the actual PTR server I’ll update it.”

Pichuca replied, “Have been playing with the new changes on FD and noticed almost a ~2600DPS increase as SV and 1200DPS as MM, virtually closing the gap between both specs (less than 200 DPS difference in favour of MM). Also BM is now 1K dps behind both SV and MM.

Those are the FD setups with my own character

MM Zeherah’s Hunter DPS Analyzer (HC hungerer and normal compass)
SV Zeherah’s Hunter DPS Analyzer (normal matrix & normal compass)

I’m logged right now on the PTR but the changes are not yet implemented to test them live. Also AS keeps eating LnL charges despite of the tooltip already being changed.

Razzghul asked, “Would this change [to Aspect of the Hawk] make each point in one with nature worth 270ap as well, giving us an extra 910ap if it goes live?”

Whitefyst replied, “When factoring in the 10% AP buff for non-BM hunters, each point in OwN is now worth 297 AP instead of the current 220 AP. Thus, 3/3 Own will provide 231 more AP. All in all this buff to Hawk is a fixed 1001 AP gain.”

For BM with its 30% AP buff, each point in OwN is now worth 386 AP instead of the current 286 AP. Thus, 3/3 Own will provide 300 more AP. All in all this buff to Hawk is a fixed 1301 AP gain.

This is very nice. Not as nice as the extra 10% AP that melee get since that is both more AP and scales with gear, but it is a nice buff to all hunter specs, with helping BM close the gap with the other hunter specs a bit.

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Vishanka Proc Fixed 1/7/12

In the Hunter DPS Analyzer thread, Ristoril wrote, “Noticed today that Vishanka may been hot fixed recently and is now working off ranged crit instead of spell crit. From the small 5min test on a dummy it was doing around 37% crit instead of the usual 20ish that i normally see.”

Rivkah replied, “Thanks for the report Ristoli on the Vishanka proc. I was able to confirm the change to physical crit as well. I also confirmed that LFR Vishanka is based off 15 sec ICD (someone had told me it might be 25 sec ICD unlike the others but it’s not).”

While updating the mechanics for Vishanka, I noticed some other issues with the way I had the damage procs supported so I’ve tweaked them to be more accurate. The physical crit modifier was being applied to spell based procs instead of the spell crit one so I addressed that, and I also made sure other damage multipliers were applied consistently. It’s possible some do apply to some procs and not others, but I don’t have details on it so I’m going to assume the standard ones like 3% dmg and noxious stings and culling the herd apply consistently.

I still plan to add PTR support for the arcane shot change, but that will take some more time as the mechanics of arcane shot interacting with lock and load are somewhat complex. Not sure if I’ll have time to get to that this weekend.

I’m also working on setting up a simulationcraft profile export, but I still need to do some tweaks on it as well as there are complicated shot priority mechanics and settings to support. I may just decide to just use a shot priority template and the default settings and let the user customize as needed, since I figure the gear/talent/glyph configuration is the most important thing.

Serkuss replied, “While the Vishanka proc does seem to be using ranged rather than spell crit chance now it still appears to be only critting for 150%. World of Logs – Real Time Raid Analysis

Jaffi replied, “Normal Vishanka is simming around 200 dps better than heroic arbalest for me since the changes made to the bow. Is that really possible? Seems much to me.”

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4.3.2 Black Arrow Change 1/12/12

In the SimulationCraft for Hunters thread, pichuca wrote, “Now that SC supports 4.3.2 Black Arrow should be used over Explosive trap on the SV profile, and maybe to do ES-AS-ES-AS-ES for LnL when above 70 focus. The Black Arrow change should bump it at least 2k DPS.”

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Vishanka Proc 1/9/12

In the SimulationCraft for Hunters thread, Serkuss wrote, “The ‘Speaking of Rage‘ proc from Vishanka appears to be critting for 200% damage in Simcraft but only 150% on live. World of Logs – Real Time Raid Analysis

Zimeron replied, “This was announced to be hot-fixed today to correctly crit for 200% like it should. Patch 4.3 Hotfixes – World of Warcraft, so looks like we’re dandy.”

Serkuss replied, “AFAIK that is a fix which is live already concerning the crit chance rather than crit damage. It is definitely still critting for 150% on live.”

Zimeron replied, “Well in that case, it’s fixed in SVN now. r10811 – simulationcraft – World of Warcraft DPS Simulator – Google Project Hosting

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Gurtogg Bloodboil and Teron Gorefiend Videos 1/6/12

In the Soloing Old Instances for Fun and Profit thread, Swát wrote, “After having read the whole thread I miss some videos about kills like Teron Gorefiend, Gurtogg, Reliquiar and so on. Therefore I made some videos myself:”

Teron Gorefiend: Teron Gorefiend vs. Hunter (solo) – YouTube This was my first video. The sound is horrible. I am sorry.

Gurtogg Bloodboil: Gurtogg Bloodboil vs. Hunter (solo) – YouTube

Little tactical guides you can see in the descriptions.

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Razorgore the Untamed 1/9/12

In the Soloing Old Instances for Fun and Profit thread, Onin wrote, “I’ve noticed a weird change in Razorgore’s behavior this week. Beforehand I had no trouble using the evade glitch to bug out the add triggers and solo him that way, but now he always suicides with the “I’m free of the orb’s control” line and takes me with him. Since this has never happened before, I assume Blizzard fixed him? :<”

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Twin Emps Plausible 1/12/12

In the Soloing Old Instances for Fun and Profit thread, Onin wrote, “After some experimentation with Twin Emps, I can confirm the fight plausible. My gear isn’t amazing (385 with LFR Deathwing weapons) and I’ve been able to make Vek’nilash very gradually lose life.”

The tactics should be relatively simple:
1. Keep up Widow Venom on Vek’Nilash, Serpent Sting on Vek’Lor
2. Use a standard hard-cast Aimed Shot rotation, where all SS and AI are aimed at Vek’Nilash, and all CS and AS are aimed at Vek’Lor.
3. Stay out of the blizzard to reduce damage taken and Misdirect as soon as they do a teleport.
You can survive for a LONG time even with Vek’lor and the large adds hitting you, so it all comes down to having enough gear to grind through that selfheal.

A full-on Magic damage rotation aimed at Vek’lor doesn’t do more damage than the above tactic. Perhaps a Survival spec may be able to have success with rushing down Vek’lor while a pet offtanks Vek’nilash, but I don’t have the experience with the spec to try it out.

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The Obsidium Sanctum 25 1/9/12

In the Soloing Old Instances for Fun and Profit thread, Dartemis wrote, “You mention doing OS25 [...] Is there a way to solo the 3rd dragon? Where you must enter the portal? I always have to grab a friend into the instance which is kind of a pain.”

Onin replied, “Grabbing a friend is sadly the only way, I’ve tried everything possible to stop the despawn or to kill Sartharion with that drake still up but no success. Which also means 3D is probably impossible, unless someone manages to achieve the 55k DPS necessary to kill him before he gets shielded.”

Durendil replied, “Sorry, forgot to make a post about it. Sartharion 25 guide and video: Durendil : Hunter soloing: Sartharion 25 down.  So, as Onin said, for the third drake you need a friend, or a second account (he doesn’t even have to dps, just survive long enough for you to get out of the portal). I doubt you could solo him with snake trap, but maybe a cardboard assassin would work.

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A full index of all Elitist Jerks posts recapped at the Wow Hunter’s Hall is maintained in the Index of Elitist Jerks Hunter Forum Posts.

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