Elitist Jerks Weekly Recap 12/23/11

Every Friday Tabana brings you the latest discussions straight from the Elitist Jerks forums with a recap of what was discussed and links to the full posts so you can stay on top of the latest in hunter theorycrafting.

Kiril, Fury of Beasts 12/20/11

In the Simple Questions/Simple Answers thread, KaneParker7 wrote, “when I run FD to check my two available current set-ups of Fandrals vs Kiril, Fandral’s actually is better than the Kiril when I reforge all of my gear around the additional statistics that Fandrals gives over Kiril.”

However, its only a 50dps loss. This suggests to me that Kiril is not being modelled in FD correctly, or that the Kiril is actually not as good as it seems.

Reading some threads on here, I see people talking about Kiril having a 35% uptime, which I have collaborated with WoL’s, and a 17-18% uptime at maximum stacks. Surely that’s a massive DPS increase over the course of a fight? 17% with such a large buff surely accounts for the 50DPS loss from statistics?

Rivkah replied, “Kiril is currently modeled on my site with a 15% proc rate and 55 sec ICD. It’s possible that the proc rate may be higher than what I have modeled, but I don’t have the item and I have to rely on other people’s data for proc rate. An 18% uptime of the full stack would imply a super high proc rate, so perhaps I should update it, but I’m not sure exactly what I should set it to.”

Note that the agility bonus from Kiril is averaged over the course of the fight on my site, which means you’d get more value if you were to do effective buff stacking (although potentially less value if your buffs were stacking when the proc wasn’t up).

KaneParker7 wrote, “I have just spent a good 15minutes hitting the target dummy with Kiril equipped now and it shows on Skada as having 35% uptime. This matches perfectly with what I was expecting.

I think the information that may be being lost in translation is the actual buff it gives. Once it’s proc’d, over the first 10 seconds it starts stacking up to its maximum agility value of 1070 agility. Once it has reached this value, it maintains this maximum level for the remaining 10 seconds of the buff.

It feels as if people think that you might only get e.g. 50% of the proc (Meaning it only gives 50% of the total agility buff available) sometimes and 100% other times, but in reality, it seems to be giving me the 100% buff at all times, once proc’d. One shot triggers the proc and then I begin increasing in size and stacking up the agility up to 1070. This is what I am referring to when I talk about having the maximum number of stacks for 17.5% of the time. 17.5% of the duration I have a bonus 1070 agility. The other 17.5% of its duration I am gaining agility at a rate of 107 per 1 second. [...] It seems logical to me to effectively split the Buff into 2 segments, one at maximum stacks and the other as an average over the first 10 second period.

Rivkah replied, “I increased the proc rate on my site for Kiril to 35% last night since it looks like there’s enough data to support that.

Other than that I believe my current implementation is as accurate as it can get given that it has to be applied averaged over the fight. For the record, 10/55 is 18.18%, so a 17.5% uptime on the full version of the buff seems about right to me. I had it modeled at 7.75 x the base agility stacking amount over the 20 seconds, but after looking at the logs, it looks like you’re really only getting 19 seconds out of the buff (1 sec each at the first 9 stacks and 10 sec at 10 stacks), so I’m going to change it to 7.63 x the base agility over 19 seconds.

Kilroy replied, “I have the normal version of Kiril and here’s a parse of a nights worth of DS 10 kills up to spine (click on Buffs cast tab): World of Logs – Real Time Raid Analysis

Fury of the Beast (36.2% uptime) is the proc from the weapon that enables you to stack Beast Fury (34.5% uptime).

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Tracking the T13 4P Proc ICD 12/20/11

In the Simple Questions/Simple Answers thread, exkael asked, “I’m trying to find a way to track the ICD of the T13 P4. We all know that it has an ICD of 100 to 105 seconds but how to have an indicator when ready to proc ? If possible with Power Aura?”

Whitefyst replied, “I have not done this yet myself since I do not have the T13 4P yet, but I do believe it is possible to use Power Auras for this to get a primitive helper by setting the buff up to continue to count negatively after the buff has expired. Thus, when you see around -85s on the buff, you will know that it is ready to be procced again.”

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Haste vs. Mastery Part II 12/16/11

In the Survival thread, the discussion of haste continued from last week’s posts. Alienangel wrote, “It’s quite easy to get 4xCoS in current gear, the question is whether it’s worth wearing that gear since it costs you crit rating to wear [...].

2265 haste rating and 3/3 Pathing gives you 1.5s Cobra Shots [...]. This is sufficient to put out 4 cobras between each ES without delaying ES – but of course you don’t want to do that especially with 2pcT13 due to all the focus, so instead you do 2xCS+2xInstants, for a total casting time of 5s, leaving a lot of dead time to account for latency between the 3 instants per cycle (in the 4xCS cycle you wouldn’t worry about latency since the server side queuing negates it as you have no contiguous instants. This dead time is what means you don’t really care about getting 1.5s cobras.

[...] On cycles where you manage to cast 2xCS and 2xInstants (generally AS), you need far less haste to fit between ES cooldowns, even with latency. A 1.5s CS cast takes 3s for 2xCS, 2s+latency x2 for 2xinstant (usually AS). So at my 100ms latency, since the queueing won’t help with latency on the 3 contiguous instants you end up firing, you have a casting time of 5.2s (5.3 if you incur the full latency after ES). So if you were willing to extend your CS casts to eat up that extra 0.7s per ES cooldown, you’d have 3.7s for 2xCS, so only need ~1.85s CS casts, which you have at just Hunting Party + Pathing with 0 haste from gear.

However whenever you proc LnL, haste helps you all the way up to around 8000 haste if you’re interleaving CS between ES since until about that much haste your CS cast is above our 1s GCD and the 1s time which we still (I think) need to wait to avoid clipping ES ticks.

For the 3xCS 1xInstant cycles you still have to do (less often with 2pc), you are back at wanting the 700-1000 haste as before, depending on latency.

The biggest argument in favour of high haste over high mastery I can think of is that in sustained AoE situations, if faster CSs lead to gaining a few extra multishots per set of adds, I think that would outweight the gain from higher SrS and ExT damage, because the extra Multishot and ISrS procs will generally do more damage than the stronger ticking DoTs and stronger but less frequent ISrS procs. The question is what duration of aoe gains you enough multishots for this to be true.

Lilbitters replied, “4x Cobra Shots at 1.5 seconds is equal to 6 seconds, which is the cooldown of Explosive Shot, but the first second of that window is taken by the GCD from casting Explosive Shot, leaving you a 5 second span for fitting in other shots. [...] So really fitting 4 Cobra Shots would require a 1.25 Cobra Shot cast time, as at 1.5 you would be delaying Explosive Shot by 1 second.

Namarus commented, “Which I might add is pretty useless since you would be wasting all that focus.”

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Lock and Load 12/19/11

In the Survival thread, Grolly wrote, “I have a question regarding and LnL procc occuring during high focus.”

Situation 1. ES, ES, AS, ES

Situation 2. ES, KC, ES, ES

Situation 1 comes out at 39168,75 DPS with a potential focus gained from toth of 61 focus I believe. Situation 2 comes out at 39466,75 DPS with a potential focus gained from toth of 52.

Now the scenario is that I procc LnL at say, 80 focus. With natural focus regen I’m likely to end up focus capping using the first sequence, especially during Hero/BL and procced haste. But I’m also more likely to end up with higher focus after the sequence is completed.

So which sequence would be the most beneficial to use? Slighly higher DPS vs slighty higher focus after the seqence?

Neith replied, “Something that I came across with regards to LnL procs: It’s been a long time recommendation I believe to use LnL procs for ES-CS-ES-AS-ES interleaving shots to maximize the use of the ES ticks. However, when I try to turn on and off interleave option in the FD, without use of interleave I get an approximate 80ish DPS gain?

I suppose this goes down to scaling with agil / mastery of the dmg of AS / CS / ES / ES ticks, and if ES scaling is higher then should we not be switching to a simple ES spam during the LnL as the gear iLVLs grow?

Grolly replied, “I know about the changes but I still get 5 ticks sometimes when I fire two esplosives in a row.”

Gada replied, “We did quite an extensive testing the past evening, probably way over 300 LnLs, (yeah I got that much time sitting out :-)) I haven’t got a single tick munched with either ES-ES-KC-ES or ES-ES-AS-ES. [...]

Azulor replied, “I think it depends on the individual. I did get dot clipping when I fired two ES immediately after one another immediately after an LnL proc.”

Also, contrary to what others have reported but in line with your results, I do not get any clips when I do EX-very brief pause-EX-AS-EX, where “very brief pause” means that I look at the dot timer for the first ES and start trying to fire the 2nd ES just as 0.5 seconds have ticked off it. This is with very low (40 ms) latency. The sample size was a lot smaller than yours.

Neith replied, “I think the implications of this is that:

with very low latency it should be: ES – <0.5 pause – ES – AS – ES
with 200+ latency it should be: ES-ES-AS-ES”

The latency automatically adds that very brief pause in between the 2 instant cast shots thus naturally avoiding DOT clipping to begin with. I think the only thing left to fully conclude on this is to find out just how much latency is needed to completely avoid that brief pause

Arash replied, “I can confirm that ES-ES-AS-ES works without clipping if you wait <0.5s. I have a 4 ms latency and for me it seems to be enough to not queue it and just press it when I see my global timer finish.”

NeoHunter replied, “If I make -50ms lags in WoW options I can do ES+ES+AS+ES with no waititing time (standing at 30 yards). If I make no changes in WoW options with lag-time I can do ES+0.5sec+ES+AS+ES.”

Since we test our dps on Ultraxion now – you will always stand closer then 30 yards. That means you need to choose the correct lag-time in options.

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Careful Aim Suppression Option 12/17/11

In the Hunter DPS Analyzer thread, Rivkah announced, “I made a few tweaks today including adding a new setting to allow you to disable the suppression of arcane shot for careful aim or aimed shot when the 4pc T13 is not on cooldown.”

I had a few requests for this, so hopefully it’s useful. I’m not sure if it’s setup perfectly for people’s needs, so if anyone has any suggestions on a better implementation for it let me know. The setting is not spec specific as SV and BM hunters could also be using the careful aim suppression option for arcane shot.

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Termination 12/22/11

In the Hunter DPS Analyzer thread, Tregetour asked, “I get no change to dps when I drop 1 point in Termination but I gain 114 when I drop both points. Why? Zeherah’s Hunter DPS Analyzer

Whitefyst replied, “For the first case of dropping a single point in Term, the DPS stayed the same since the focus from the 2nd point in Term provides no benefit, especially with the T13 2p. Your shots taken are exactly the same in both case.

Remember that Term helps best when you are hasted and performing higher focus costing AIs. In this case, your only haste effects over the Term phase were trinket procs (which are not enough haste at your haste level to switch to AI) and a T13 4p proc. Hence, only 2 AIs were cast over the whole Term phase. The result is a little different if had RF or BL over Term with more AI casts.

In the second case, the reason that DPS went up after removing the last point in Term is easily seen with a little investigation. First, the shot totals changed, with 1 more AI and SS versus 2 less ASs, which is definitely a DPS gain. So the question is why did this difference occur. The reason is the default rules that FD uses, which saves focus for CS. It will not let you cast a focus costing shot unless you have enough focus to do both it and CS. In the original case, the point in Term resulted in higher focus at a point at about 248s where the original case had enough focus to cast back to back ASs per the FD rule but the the no Term case did not. It is the ripple down effect of this decision that caused the difference. It resulted in your T13 4p proc to occur about 2s later meaning that a little bit more of it overlapped with a The Hungerer proc and reduced an AI’s cast time. But the real difference is that the second case had to perform some SSs sooner, resulting in a slightly sooner MMM AI proc. This along with the extra SS resulted in an extra MMM AI proc occurring right before the end that did not occur previously.

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Vial of Shadows Proc Fixed 12/16/11

In the Hunter DPS Analyzer thread, o5a wrote, “Vial of Shadows seems to be fixed – not a single dodge/parry whole last raiding week and this reset too. Maybe they made it expertise capped based on hunter hitcap, didnt test with less than 8% hit.

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Piercing Shots 12/17/11

In the SimulationCraft for Hunters thread, Hirgux wrote, “For SV spec I get the same DPS with 430-2 and the self compiled version from a few days ago (don’t know the exact rev), but for MM spec I get different results.”

I used this profile: Pastebin.com in both versions and got ~34644 dps for 430-2; and then in the new compiled version and I got ~35105 dps. I checked the changes between 05.12.2011 (430-2) and today and there seem to be no changes for MM spec that could cause the dps changes. SV gets same DPS in both versions. Anything wrong with Simcraft here?

Zimeron replied, “This is the change that is creating the difference: Change aura_delay from 150ms to 500ms, affects munching/rolling of Ignite, Deep Wounds, Piercing Shots”

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Teron Gorefiend 12/19/11

In the Soloing Old Instances for Fun and Profit thread, Swát asked, “How can I beat Teron Gorefiend in BT? On Page 32 said Durendil “Gorefiend: Killed”. Can someone explain it or link a videoguide?

Lolbroek referred Swát to a previous post by Celestianna and added, “The trick is to not be on the aggro list of the boss at the same time as your pet basically.”

So…engage boss and use every cooldown you have and Feign Death within 15-20 seconds of pulling him. I found the best way to do this is by moving your pet to the middle of the room while you misdirect the boss to it. During this 6 minute period your pet damages the boss and you keep it alive by alternating Cower and Spirit Mend.

When you have less than 1 minute left before Feign Death expires, put your pet on passive (you don’t want Bloodthirsty healing to mess up your timing) and watch it’s healthbar closely. When your pet is about to receive the killing blow from the boss, jump up and shoot the boss to avoid it from resetting the encounter.

You now have 25 seconds of cooldown on Feign Death. The first 15 seconds you spend kiting the boss as good as you can, use traps, Disengage and glyphed Raptor Strike to survive this bit while still trying to dps as much as possible. When you have less than 10 seconds of cooldown on Feign Death use Deterrence and start ressurecting your pet.

Feign Death immidiately when your pet is up again (and pray the pet’s healthbar jumps to full fast, stupid bug…). By now the boss should be around 35% health.

Let your pet continue to damage the boss and when 9 minutes since the pull have passed, jump up, use all cooldowns and burn the boss down within the remaining minute.

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Azgalor 12/16/11

In the Soloing Old Instances for Fun and Profit thread,  Durendil wrote, “Azgalor solo’d by Szalor.”

Szalor vs Azgalor: hunter soloing (world first) – YouTube You will need a spirit beast. Easy strat [...] the boss will be at 99+3 to 99+5 yards away from you, and won’t cast doom on you. FD doesn’t work because it makes Azgalor hit ten times harder. The guide is built-in with the video.

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Echo of Jaina and Echo of Tyrande in End Time 12/20/11

In the Soloing Old Instances for Fun and Profit thread, Onin wrote, “Echo of Jaina and Echo of Tyrande downed by a hunter.”

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Assembly of Iron: I Choose You, Steelbreaker12/19/11

In the Soloing Old Instances for Fun and Profit thread,  Durendil wrote, I choose you, Steelbreaker Well, guess I finally finished with this boss. Then again, I haven’t done the Brundir/Molgeim/Steelbreaker combo.

Guide here: Durendil : Hunter soloing: Iron council Hardest mode down! This boss is a real battle for survival (both pet and hunter). I did lousy dps in phase 3 and still killed him.

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A full index of all Elitist Jerks posts recapped at the Wow Hunter’s Hall is maintained in the Index of Elitist Jerks Hunter Forum Posts.

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