Elitist Jerks Weekly Recap 11/4/11

Every Friday Tabana brings you the latest discussions straight from the Elitist Jerks forums with a recap of what was discussed and links to the full posts so you can stay on top of the latest in hunter theorycrafting.

Pets Glitched in Top WoL Parses 10/29/11

In the Simple Questions/Simple Answers thread, Ishalla asked if anyone could explain how the hunters with the two highest parses in the heroic Baleroc fight were able to perform such high dps:

[...] I’m confused by this: World of Logs – Real Time Raid Analysis

I can’t for the life of me figure out how the guy in second has managed to hit 44k, let alone the one above it on 52k. Odds are it’s probably fiddling the stats as when I went to check the guy in second[...] he’s wiped the talents off of all pets whose name matches the one in the log. [...]Was just wondering if anyone has any ideas on this [...].

Lilbitters found that the pet normal melee attacks were hasted:

I happened to notice the same thing 2 days ago when the TW player posted his log. Reviewing it, the pet is melee swinging every ~.3-.4 seconds instead of just over 1 second as a normal pet. Both players are using the exact same silithid model which are only 1 of 2 possible mobs in the game (Harakiss the Infestor, or Princess Yauj) and both have at least 4 copies of the same pet in their stable for some reason. I’m not sure, but possibly the Frenzy buff is staying after taming Harakiss or the pet is inheriting haste from the hunter or something, as aside from pet hasted regular melee attacks, there there isn’t anything abnormal in the logs for spell usage or buffs gained.

Bowbaq added: “Their silithids didn’t have glancing blow, and it seems they had an invisible passive buff ~250% attack speed and a 50% dmg bonus.”

I tried to tame Princess Yauj (as killing Vem give her a 10 minutes buff) but it doesn’t seem to work. Neither killing Kri then Vem, taming Yauj nor killing Vem taming Yauj work.

Cranch mentioned, “It’s possible the tamer needs to use the PetAbandon trick (see Quick update for the PetAbandon macro for the latest on that) in order to hold on to the Frenzy capability the mob has.”

Carlaena stated, “Using an exploit to gain a massive damage increase will probably get you banned, or at least suspended, if you are caught. Being stupid enough to upload the logs of your abuse, for all to see, opens the door for anyone to report the offenders …”

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Maintaining Concentration in the Heroic Majordomo Staghelm Encounter 11/3/11

In the Simple Questions/Simple Answers thread, Pinkfish asked, “My guild has had H Majordomo on farm for a while now, but I’m still having some problems on this fight. How as a hunter can you maintain the maximum uptime of the Concentration buff?”

On 25 man we have all ranged stand around the circle while Majordomo is being tanked in the middle. It’s pretty short range for when he leaps on you, you don’t have much time to get away. I’ll disengage away as soon as I get targeted but I’ll still take damage. Our raid leader who is melee, complains if we stand further away because melee lose dps time on him the further he has to leap. I would be fine with it just being me that is bad, but I’m our top ranged dps on that fight and none of us ranged has more than 42k dps on that fight, which makes me think it’s how we do it and not just people being bad about moving. Any suggestions to how to spread out on 25h during cat phase to avoid getting hit by Leaping Flames?

KaneParker7 replied, “Which strategy are you using? Do you maximise Cat time, taking upwards of 7-8 leaps or do you stack and take hits in Scorpion form? The best dps recorded by our class is achieved by keeping the boss in Cat form for as long as possible.”

Getting lucky with few leaps onto you is also handy. From my own personal experience, the later strategy makes it very, very difficult to break over 50k dps. In my guild, we use the Scorpion form strategy and I struggle to stick around the 50k dps mark. If the boss were to be kept in Cat form though, I wouldn’t be losing my buff, unless he leapt directly onto me or I take damage from Seed/Orbs, meaning my DPS would sky rocket.

Other tips to maximise DPS are to only use Rapid Fire/Call of the Wild/Potions while you have a 100% concentration buff. This can be difficult to master but yields huge dps gains. On the second round of Rapid Fire’s, it can all be ruined by a leap onto you though, so be careful before popping RF’s. Consider waiting for the first leap to occur and then go for it.

Cranch added, “The biggest issue I face with heroic Domo is that, to avoid the leaps, I need to be (a) at maximum range and (b) start moving from my spot as soon as the cat hits 100 energy.

And even so, I get one tick of damage about half of the time. And then, half the leaps, he runs out of range, losing even more dps from me. I’ve had people claim that you can tell if you’re about to be leapt on and move out of range easily, but I’ve had zero luck doing that. [...]

If your raid is doing Scorpion stacks, you can have one ranged dps stay outside of the stacked raid [...] I’d recommend you blow your burst cooldowns as soon as you can during the start of a cat phase (assuming you’re at 100% buffed) and hope the first leap doesn’t hit you.

Lilbitters replied, “Here’s a video of me timing the Inferno Leaps in a way such that I didn’t take any damage during the entire fight (except for my own Seed explosion on myself, since we give HoP to mages which use their Ice Blocks to soak Burning Orbs). [...]”

The key to this is just to play cautious and it’s really easy if you use BigWigs. Just start strafing to a location that’s 10 yards away from anyone else when the Inferno Leap timer is at 1-0.5 seconds remaining and don’t stop until he has started going towards his intended target. It’s not even a dps loss, just time it so that those 2 GCDs are used by instants by saving up focus, even if it results in 4-5 Steady Shots in a row right before he Leaps so that you can use Chimera and Arcanes until you’re back to a safe spot.

I try and position myself so that I’m right on the edge of an Inferno Leap patch, just a bit closer to the backside of it so that if I’m targeted, they’ll overlap.

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Silithid Pets in Top WOL Parses 11/1/11

In the Beast Mastery thread, Duskmourne said “I’m seeing a few BM hunters above 40K for Baleroc (10/10H/25/25H) on World of Logs, all of them are using a Silithid even though they have a Priest in their group.”

Could anyone who knows what I’m talking about care to elaborate? I’m just very intrigued at what exactly they’re doing to accomplish 40k as BM. But it’s also make me wonder if there’s more at play here, say maybe a glitch that has to do with the specific pet.

Neruse said, “Perhaps taming Yauj after Vem dies doesn’t wipe the enrage buff? The buff Vengeance – Spell – World of Warcraft could explain why each pet ability hits about twice as hard than normal, and why standard melee attacks are the majority of pet damage done. The hunter’s damage done isn’t anomalous, otherwise.”

RBH replied, “Taming Yauj then killing Vem would result in Yauj getting the buff, but only have a 10 minute duration, hence the need for multiple Silithids in the second-place hunter’s stable.”

Duskmourne replied, “Hmm that sounds very plausible Neruse. [...] The more I think about it the more sense that actually makes. Some of the hunters have multiple Silithid, considering some pets lose their appearance buff when they die. I’m guessing Vem is one of them.

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Haste Recommendation 11/2/11

In the Marksmanship thread, Zerova asked if the recommendations in the guide assumed 10% haste buff.

I currently have 1872 haste (18.06%) and my casts (with the imp ss up) is 1.473sec. According to your guide you should see a 1.4sec cast at 12.93% haste. Should I get 23% haste? Or should i get 13% and use less SS?

Whitefyst replied, “To be clear, here is how an SS cast is 1.4s with 12.93% haste from gear and Pathing.”

2s / 1.1 (10% haste raid buff) / 1.15 (ISS) / 1.1293 = 1.40001

At your haste level of 1872, your haste from gear is 14.62% and your over all haste including Pathing is 18.06%.

Your SS cast should be at: 2 / 1.1 / 1.15/1.1806 = 1.34s

Your SS cast should be 1.473 without the 10% haste raid buff. As MM, its hard to practive your shots on the target dummy if you do not have a friend available with the 10% haste raid buff.

At near end game gear levels like yours, you should follow the high haste recommendation in the guide.

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Spirit Bond vs. Aspect of the Iron Hawk 10/28/11

In the Mists of Pandaria thread, Nooska replied to Mericet’s previous post which noted that Spirit Bond is changed in MoP:

I didn’t notice that part [...]. I still stand by my original thoughts on it though, seeing as Iron Hawk only diminishes Direct Damage – last I checked, direct damage is only single target damage with you as the target. If it has changed (or I am misremembering) or IH is badly worded, then I agree, that a 15% DR is superior to 2% health gain every 5 seconds – especially with Exhilaration.

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Talent Swapping 10/27/11

In the Mists of Pandaria thread, Mericet asked, “Has blizzard given anything concrete on how you will be able to swap talents? Someone told me they said it would be similar to changing glyphs (ie, you can do it anywhere as long as you’re out of combat), which would be great, but I don’t want to get my hopes up.”

Narcosleepy replied, “Yes Ghostcrawler stated during the Q&A that you be able to swap them out on a fight by fight basis like a gylph. He did not go into detail as to how / what we would need to do that (such as Dust of Disappearance, etc.) but did state we would be able to.”

Supporting Statements – “The choice comes, hopefully, from choosing talents that appeal to how you like to play or what you think would be particularly useful for a specific boss, fight, or encounter, and the ability to swap around points freely while out in the world help reinforce that.” From The new talent system will fail, miserably. – MMO-Champion BlueTracker

Mericet responded, “I saw that on the Q&A last night too, and was very pleased. I’m also glad they mentioned prime glyphs as potentially in the same boat as the old talent system since the choices are almost entirely based on making the correct number assumptions rather than utility [...].

For most classes major glyphs are really in the sweet spot when it comes to swapping in different utility for different things; a paradigm which I think is engaging and makes a lot of sense, so modeling the new talent system after them seems like a winner.

Narcosleepy replied, “What I took from the presentation on this, and I can’t stress enough this is MY interpretation, is this. Talent trees were intended to be a way for players to express some individuality but they never ended up that way.”

As we all know, from the start they ended being a cookie cutter of ‘best dps’. This allows them to build 95% ‘best dps’ into the baseline (at least as far as talents go) and allows us to choose the new talents based on individualism as well as situational needs. It allows them to make the talents much closer to what they intended them to be.

Hopefully they will be able to do that. I think a lot of it remains to be seen, but personally I am looking forward to this new change and how it will play out.

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Talents, part II 10/29/11

In the Mists of Pandaria thread, Namarus replied to Nooska’s previous post regarding first impressions of the new talents:

Level 15

  • Frozen Arrows To me this seems a rather lackluster talent to improve the value of this talent they will either need to remove concussive shot, have it apply to all shots rather than autoshot, or as Nooska said upping the proc rate. Concussive shot to me just has more control that this talent will ever have, along with the glyph.
  • Arcane Arrows This is a very interesting talent, especially for PVP where the gain of focus is especially hard. This also has some interesting implications with haste effects.
  • Venom Tipped Arrows Without any idea as to the scaling of the damage component of this it is a little hard to say how good this will be. I will point out something very interesting though, this will be a nice way to put dots on targets, and it is applied via all shots including abilities like multi-shot from the wording. So this has the potential to be an impressive talent.

Level 30

  • SiS Honestly being able to reliably interrupt in my opinion is such a major ability that I pretty much discount the two other abilities in this tier. Wyvern sting as Nooska put it is unreliable due to the dot effect and can be dispelled. Also since this is a talent will Noxious Stings still be around? Intimidation, an excellent pvp talent, but it really does not compare with silencing shot, three times a minute compared to Intimidation’s once.

Level 45

  • Posthaste I differ in my point of view with nooska. Posthaste is nice, but really I don’t think much of it even now, only picking it up for the Rapid fire reduction effect.
  • Evasiveness To me this could be an impressive PVE talent along with PVP talent, being able to 100% resist spell effects on a known timer could help keep a hunter alive. Not to mention disengage, resist Death Grip anyone???
  • Exhilaration Yeah this sounds nice, but sounds kind of stupid. I’ve got to use one of my defensive cooldown to get a mere 15% of my health back. This is more powerful than Spirit Bond, I am just biased against this ability. To me it just doesn’t fit my image of a hunter.

Level 60

  • Crouching Tiger, Hidden Chimera; Spirit Bond; Aspect of the Iron Hawk I 100% agree with Nooska. There aren’t very many direct damage sources in raiding, but in pvp iron hawk could be useful. However in the long term pvp fight Spirit Bond will beat it out. CT,HC rarely ever procs in PVE raiding. However, CT,HC with Exhilaration could have some important ramifications for pvp.

Level 75

  • Fervor, Readiness and Thrill of the Hunt Fervor is seriously underpowered compared to Readiness and TotH. This only gets worse if for example the hunter has Arcane Arrows, since more focus depleting shots are going to be fired, and the potential to pick up focus returns increase as a result. I am looking forward to having Rapid Fire, Bestial Wrath and then popping Readiness to get them back. This could give BM a serious amount of burst for a short period of time. [...]

Level 90

I must admit to being rather disappointed with the level 90 tier.

  • Flash Freeze Freezing trap not having a cooldown, is a little lackluster, although in situations where the mob missed running into the trap you laid down, being able to place it down again is somewhat useful. However the problems inherent with trapping are still around.
  • Black Ice a pretty excellent pvp talent, and has almost … almost no pve value at all.
  • Transmorph Trap according to the wording this looks like it will be on the same cooldown as snake traps. However the rest of the wording is so vague I’m not able to interpret as to whether this is a good idea or not.

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Transmorph Trap 10/31/11

In the Mists of Pandaria thread, Bovii wrote, “A lot of people are operating under the assumption that, because of the wording, Transmorph Trap will allow them to CC a mob through the trap and then, before it ends, Scare Beast into additional CC. Right now, we can’t use Scare Beast on a Polyed target and can’t use it on a target that has been hexed. [...]”

Nooska replied, “Neither hex nor polymorph changes the creature type (turns the target into a frog/sheep respectively), while the wording on the trap specifically says beast, a creature type, and not a specific beast. Granted that could be either a placeholder or a random beast, but the wording differs significantly from polymorph and hex at this time.”

Mericet replied:

Frostheim mentioned in a blog post that at Blizzcon he asked Ghostcrawler if they had accounted for a hunter being able to do something like Ice Trap one target, Wyvern Sting another, Transmorph Trap another, Scatter Shot a 4th, then hit Readiness and do it again, and that’s without trying the Scare Beast. Ghostcrawler reportedly responded that could be a problem. Of course you’d have to give up a lot of stuff to get all those abilities, but it does seem like the kind of situation Blizzard does not want to let pan out.

It feels like Transmorph Trap is one of those mechanics they think will be interesting and they want to make happen in some way, but I wouldn’t expect to get EVEN MORE crowd control out of it from Scare Beast, assuming it ever makes it live as another separate form of CC to begin with.

Bovii replied, “This is very true, Nooska. But you’re operating under the assumption that it would work that way.”

Right now, we’ve got a 50/50 chance of either of us being right. I just can’t see them allowing that to happen, though. Opens up a major can of worms from the stand point of balance amongst the classes (you’ll hear people screaming all over the place) and just from the fact that you’d be able to CC a single target almost indefinitely. We don’t need more ways to CC, we need better and more feasible ways to do so.

Nooska replied, “I couldn’t agree more with the last sentiment.”

I think, in the “real world” there is a greater than even chance that you will be right, simply because the way it is written now (in my reading and explanation) is simply too powerful a tool – even for a level 90 talent – though I most definitely will be trying it out if the wording goes unchanged as soon as I get in the beta.

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Venom Tipped Arrows Similar to Serpent Spread? 11/1/11

In the Mists of Pandaria thread, RBH said, “On the first tier of talents, it seems to me that VTA will be mandatory for any fights requiring any AoE, as the way it is worded, should proc from all attacks. (Possibly Serpent Spread 2.0, or more likely Deadly Poison being pushed off from Rogues to Hunters.)”

CedricDur replied, “Both Tier 1 talents insist it is auto-shots which are affected. Though the wording is not clear it seems to make sense that VTA would be the same.”

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Item Comparison Feature 10/31/11

In the Hunter DPS Analyzer thread, Grimgagorim asked, “Do you plan to add a similar equip compare like in the spreadsheet? Which are the next better items you can get and from where?”

Rivkah replied, “I don’t plan to implement such a feature. The amount of work required would be immense and I just don’t have the time to invest in it.”

There are other tools that exist for comparing items based on stat weights (and I link to a few from the damage results) which aren’t as comprehensive as I know the original Excel spreadsheet used to be, but are reasonably useful for the purpose. Actually doing what the original spreadsheet used to do (i.e. automatically trying all the various configs instead of just going by stat weights) would be far too computationally expensive to do via a web based utility like my site in addition to the time investment involved.

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Ruinblaster Shotgun and Vishanka, Jaws of the Earth 11/1/11

In the Hunter DPS Analyzer thread, Chryzm offered to test ranged weapons from the Dragonsoul Raid:

I got 2 items from last night’s PTR Dragonsoul raid:

Ruinblaster Shotgun from Random Trash
Vishanka, Jaws of the Earth from Madness of Deathwing

Deathwing bow being higher ilvl and me being a Troll the bow is obviously better but what’s weird is they have the same exact dmg proc but the trash gun still has secondary stats as well as the proc.

If you need me to test the proc or anything let me know Zeherah.

Rivkah asked that the proc for Vishanka be tested:

It would be helpful to find out the proc chance on the bow and if it has an ICD. I currently have it modeled on the site with 15% proc chance and no ICD. I’m also assuming the damage from it is physical (and affected by armor) but if that’s not the case it’d be good to know as well.

I suspect the reason the gun has both secondary stats and the proc is that they were in the process of converting it to remove the proc and forgot to take it off (since originally it just had a proc).

RBH said, “The type of damage dealt by the proc is Fire.”

As such it theoretically should be affected by Survival Mastery, though this may not be the case.

Source: Link 1, Link 2, Link 3

Chryzm replied, “It’s affected by something because when I’m not in a raid it says 7950 but in a raid it was 8 thousand something.”

I’m guessing like 10% Spellpower. I didn’t get to test it on any bosses since Madness was last one. Next PTR Testing I will get some WorldofLogs data. I got the 2pc T13 as well. It will def scale with Survival Mastery because the 1Handed AGI Axe our Enhance Shaman got scales a lot with his.

RBH replied, “If you get time, do a couple of 5-minute tests with different buffs, i.e. Kings, 10% SP, AI. Log them and post the results. Also a long-ish (10 min?) duration no buffs steady shot spam test can help nail down the ICD.”

Rivkah replied, “Thanks for the update on the gun/bow proc. I’ve switched the site for now to treat the proc as flat, which means it uses spell damage modifiers but can’t crit and doesn’t get affected by SV mastery (basically the same treatment that DMC:Hurricane gets).”

If you guys get a chance to do more detailed testing it’d be helpful. I’d like to know if it’s affected by SV’s mastery (and also by spell dmg modifiers like curse of elements) as well as which crit modifiers it seems to be using or if it can even crit.

I’m guessing based on the description that it won’t crit but that should be testable. I also doubt it would use spellpower modifiers since hunters don’t scale with spellpower, but 8% spell damage increase debuff is likely the discrepancy you’re seeing Maglio (can check with a dragonhawk or windserpent to confirm).

Chryzm replied:

I don’t think debuffs would show up on the updated tooltip of an items damage no? The ticks can crit… don’t know how good you’re at World of Logs but this is just a entire clump of damage of mine throughout the whole zone since WoL doesn’t seperate the PTR bosses because it’s listed as a unknown zone. The only bosses I did with the bow were Warlord Zon’ozz and Hagara the Stormbinder. I wasn’t hit capped with this bow I just threw it on and loss the secondary stats so I wasn’t reforged properly so if you see misses that is probably why.

World of Logs – Real Time Raid Analysis

Rivkah replied, “Didn’t realize you were referring to the tooltip change. That was probably caused by the 3% dmg buff then.”

Thanks for the logs, they’re helpful. It looks like the crits are based off the spell crit modifier, so I’ll modify that proc setting on my site accordingly. It looks like the proc does the damage in 10 ticks over the course of 2 seconds and each one can crit or not individually.

I don’t know much about the mechanics of the bosses so I’m having a little trouble figuring out what is causing the variations on damage. The base tick with the 3% dmg bonus would be 818.85. With culling the herd procced it’d be 843.4155. Including the 8% spell damage debuff brings it to 910.88874. 8% spell damage debuff without culling the herd is 884.358. Most of the procs in your log match one of those 4 numbers (or the crit multiplier of it). However I see a bunch of higher numbers when fighting Warlord Zon’ozz. Does he have some sort of damage multiplier he’s applying?

If you have a chance to test against a dummy with an SV spec to see if mastery is affecting the proc, that’d be helpful. Thanks for all the data!

Chryzm replied, “Yes there is a damage amp with Warlord Zon’ozz sorry. “The Void Diffusion increases the damage Zon’ozz takes by 5% for every time the Void of the Unmaking bounces between players”

Dropped an interesting trinket [Vial of Shadows] Our Feral Druid got it and it crits. Tooltip is modified by dmg because it says 50k for him and only 38k for me. It was doing a lot of damage for him [...].

Chryzm later edited the post to explain why no further testing can be done:

Our Hunters including myself got sat because our dmg even isn’t [...] competitive. I hear Vodka is sitting their hunters as well. [...] On Yor’sahj the Unsleeping [...] we can’t stack on melee and DPS because of the hitbox\deadzone. [...]

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Horrifying Horn Arbalest Bug; Kiril, Fury of Beasts Proc 10/30/11

In the Hunter DPS Analyzer thread, Gada noted a bug in the implementation of Horrifying Horn Arbalest:

Noticed a bug when you plug the Horrifying Horn Arbalest , it would break the calculation and throw a bunch of errors.

Warning: Division by zero in /home/cdaveb/femaledwarf/inc/dps_funcs.inc on line 907
Warning: Division by zero in /home/cdaveb/femaledwarf/inc/dps_funcs.inc on line 4000
Warning: Division by zero in /home/cdaveb/femaledwarf/inc/dps_funcs.inc on line 2838
Warning: Division by zero in /home/cdaveb/femaledwarf/inc/dps_funcs.inc on line 2849

The proc of Kiril, Fury of Beasts doesnt seem to be inplemented ?

Rivkah replied, “[...] Looks like I forgot to put in the dps stats for that particular crossbow. It should be fixed now.”

I also didn’t implement the proc from Kiril yet because it’s not a simple proc and will require some custom code (reading it, it doesn’t sound like it would have 100% uptime like the trinket stacking procs, but maybe I misread it). I’ll make some time later today to see if I can figure out the best approach to it, although without the details about how it functions it’ll be hard to do properly.

I also haven’t yet added all 3 versions of the new set items but that’s also on my list of things to do today.

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Kael’thas Sunstrider, Fine Tuning 11/1/11

In the Soloing Old Instances for Fun and Profit thread, RBH said, “I have been fine tuning my out-of-room Kael’thas (The Eye) strategy, and have found an ideal place for phase 4 to take place.”

This position occurs in both side wings (Void Reaver’s and High Astromancer Solarian’s rooms). It allows for unobstructed line of sight to your pet, allowing for continuous Mend up time, while remaining out of line of sight of Kael’thas himself. If using this method, be sure to disable Thunderstomp at the beginning of phase 4 if you do not do so already, and disable Growl before a Phoenix spawn, so you will have threat on it and can Feign to despawn it, rather than DPSing it down. You can also drop Explosive traps just as the Mind Control is about to come off cooldown, to further assist in this, and provide extra boss damage.

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Gluth Bug 11/2/11

In the Soloing Old Instances for Fun and Profit thread, Durendilwrote, “A week ago, I was trying to kill Gluth in Naxxramas. However, on one of my tries, no zombie spawned (making the fight trivial). What happened? I tried to do it again this week.

If you FD, let him nicely reset, then get up, zombie spawn. If you FD a split-second then get back up, zombie spawn. So there is a timing problem.

Now, I managed to bug him twice today while working on this method. There are 3 explanations:

  1. I FD, and got back up a split-second before his reset, and the zombie spawning timer had been reset but not the boss.
  2. I FD, and got back up a split-second after his reset, so the boss had reset but not the zombie spawning timer, who reset a split-second after I aggroed Gluth
  3. The most probable is that I FD while a zombie was aggroing me, Gluth resets, but he spots a zombie, he goes to eat him, and I go back up after he has charged the zombie but before he eats it. As such, Gluth isn’t “engaged,” so no zombie spawns. It is to be noted that the zombie hadn’t gone back to his spawn point when Gluth ate him (might be irrelevant).

Now, this is an exploit – no achievement, congratulations, world first… But it can be useful for farming Naxxramas (Gluth + Thaddius = 300 gold in 10 minutes).

So if someone who isn’t linked to Naxxramas could help me understand, it would be a great help for my wallet and all the hunters who have done too much daily quests in their lifetime.

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A full index of all Elitist Jerks posts recapped at the Wow Hunter’s Hall is maintained in the Index of Elitist Jerks Hunter Forum Posts.

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